10-1-2011 GAME THREAD: Various and Sundry Playoff Games

by Amy 1. October 2011 10:06

Hi Guys,

Looked like we could use a new thread. As you were, please continue with the playoff chatter and offseason discussions!!

Tags:

Game Thread

Comments (283) -

genewv
genewv
10/1/2011 10:26:54 AM #

Just wanted to be the first to post. Makes me feel important!

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/1/2011 10:37:43 AM #

Lifted from the end of the previous thread:

I'm really looking forward to all the optimism that comes with a clean slate and the transaction seasons. That being said, I cannot dismiss what appears to be totally moronic decisions that have been made/not made in the past 2 months.
Like:
- Why wasn't Chapman put into a regimen that would have begun the process of stretching out his innings per appearance? Long relief, spot start, whatever? Begin by using him for 2innings. A few days rest and 3 innings. He could easily have been up to 4-5 innings by now and well on his way to a somewhat smooth transistion into the rotation. Now, that will happen in ST and the early months of 2012. Why not get a jump on that?
- Could Alonso have been given the same opportunity in the outfield that 1 Francisco was given at 3rd?
- In the event Chapman makes a spot start and is expected to go 4-5 innings, Why not try Volquez out of the pen? You have a little insurance against BP overuse and maybe a gage on his potential there.
        These are just a few of the inventory check list things that (I believe) should have been addressed once the chances of play-off contention went out the window. Am I alone here?  

Amy
Amy
10/1/2011 11:08:47 AM #

Good story on the Rays' pitcher from game 1:

sports.yahoo.com/.../news;_ylt=Ai_X9Tki4dsrZmVIGgG1CMoRvLYF

genewv
genewv
10/1/2011 11:34:25 AM #

Good points all, Dawg.

We were somewhat rudderless ( one of my favorite phrases )in our end to the season, until maybe the last week or so. We definitely could have known a lot more about our team, or at the very least, have evidence to explore, study, than we have now.

Excellent article, Amy. Nice find. There is often a way forward not at first obvious.

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/1/2011 12:57:35 PM #

I had to get up too early for a Saturday and attend an Upward football so I could watch my daughter cheer.  While on the way to the game I was listening to ESPN radio and they were talking to Buster Olney who had some insight into Francona and potential coaches for Boston.  Thought I'd share what he said:

First off he says this season was pretty rough on Francona and part of the issues is that his son is in Afghanistan.  While Olney suspects the Cubs and other teams will show a huge interest in Francona he thinks he'll likely take a season off.  Personally this would be good in my opinion because it will keep him in the mix for Cincy next year or mid season when Dusty is finally fired.  I'm not saying I'm 100% behind Francona to Cincy but I do think he would be a better fit than Dusty.  

The issue he has had in Boston was being a bit too much of a players manager.  I don't think lack of common sense when making lineups or handling the bullpen or just sheer stubbornness are traits he has so I still consider him a huge upgrade over Dusty.  But there may be better candidates out there in a year so I'll hold off giving him my endorsement just yet.

The other items Olney mentioned was in relation to our old buddy Pete Mackanin.  (I know a lot of us really wish Pete had been given a chance to coach the Reds going forward.  I really liked his coaching style and how he addressed the media.  I would have loved to see what he could have done with this young team but alas we know it did not happen and as a result of not giving that chance I really don't think we'll ever see him in Cincy. Personally I don't think he'd take the job now that he was overlooked for it back then and I would not blame him one bit.)  OK - back to what Olney stated sorry about that...

Pete Mackanin is being mentioned as a potential replacement in Boston among others such as Eric Wedge and even Bruce Bochy.  He specifically stated that the word in NY last year was if Girardi had left and gone to the Cubs that Pete Mackanin was going to be offered the Yankees job.  The fact that the Yankees and RedSox see the value in a guy like Mackanin and the Reds ownership could not see it even after his short but impressive run as interim manager not only boggles the mind but is extremely frustrating for this Reds fan.    

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/1/2011 1:00:50 PM #

Dawg - I agree with you 100% on the handling of Chapman.  I really went into the Spring last year feeling that they would start molding Chapman then into a starter and it did not happen.  2011 was a waste of a year of development for Chapman in that regard. The team let that train get off the track and I wonder if they'll be able to get it back on the tracks now.

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/1/2011 1:13:47 PM #

I felt Aroldis was the best hope for a stud ace that Red's fans have had since the misplaced faith in Homer, maybe longer than that. I still think that he could be a solid #1. This further confuses me about what they were thinking (or not thinking) going into 2011. It's comparable to asking Datdude to try catching or CF because we have a need there. Just really frustrating, to me.
I'm not sure Chapman can be a solid 2 or 3 by next season. I'm hoping WJ goes out and gets someone who can along with a strong RH hitter for SS or the outfield. Maybe luck into a 2010 Gomes to platoon out Yonder. And then, of course there is always the bull-pen to consider.  

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/1/2011 1:17:06 PM #

Dawg - I don't know how Chapman can be ready to start in the big leagues much less be a solid #2 or #3 with so little time to prepare for it.  I think he's a solid year away.  Perhaps late next year (when he's approaching IP limits and needs to be shut down).  I don't know how he helps the Reds in 2012 now.  

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/1/2011 5:20:47 PM #

Again, eff the effing Braves.

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/1/2011 6:50:54 PM #

Kyle Lohse is pitching like Kyle Lohse, and I'm lovin' it!

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/1/2011 7:17:30 PM #

Took him long enough!

genewv
genewv
10/1/2011 8:01:46 PM #

RO happy again, as Cards get stuffed!

genewv
genewv
10/1/2011 8:02:53 PM #

Hey, there is Stlredsfan,

Good to see you still kicking.

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/1/2011 8:11:19 PM #

Still around, thanks.  Hoping for a clean sweep to somewhat invalidate the Cardinals' playoff berth.

!Dawginnaples
!Dawginnaples
10/1/2011 8:44:56 PM #

I'll second that emotion!

DocProc
DocProc
10/1/2011 8:43:16 PM #

Just saying hi.  Rooting for my hometown boys from Motown.

!Dawginnaples
!Dawginnaples
10/1/2011 8:46:43 PM #

OK Doc - just talked ME into it. Go Tigers!

genewv
genewv
10/1/2011 9:28:49 PM #

Thought Doc was a WVU Mountaineer there for a moment--Motown threw me off for a moment.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/1/2011 10:07:20 PM #

Should we all become Rays fans? I'm thinking about it.

I have a pennant from back when they used to be the Devil Rays, so I think that makes me legit.

Amy
Amy
10/1/2011 11:24:06 PM #

We won the NL! In this:

www.flipflopflyin.com/.../...-2011playingtime.html

DocProc
DocProc
10/2/2011 8:24:27 AM #

Hard to believe, given our team's penchant for swinging at first pitches.

River Otter
River Otter
10/2/2011 9:56:58 PM #

Or that the Cardinals would be in the middle of the league.  With all of TLR's overmanaging, it seems like the Cards' games take forever.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 9:59:06 AM #

Not really. We scored a lot and gave up a lot. That leads to long games.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 10:02:18 AM #

Griz...I'm already a rays fan and have the 2008 WS ticket stubs to prove it. How can you not like this team.

Did yesterday make anyone reconsider Shields as a target? I never really knew how he was so successful. He has to keep the ball down or he really gets roughed up.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 10:03:42 AM #

I posted this yesterday.

Why the Rays don't draw is a very complex issue. Its more than the Trop is a dump or its not a baseball town.

I sell mostly baseball stuff for a living. I am around baseball all the time at the youth, HS and College level. Tampa is the best baseball city in Florida except Miami. Either way they play a ton of baseball and ton of good players come from that area.

Why don't they draw?

Yes the Trop is a dump.

If it were a dump and not in St Pete it would do better. Most of the population is in Hillsborough county(Tampa and its burbs). I used to get off work at 5:30 just north or downtown with our companies season tix in hand. I barely got into the park by 1st pitch. What a chore to get over there.

They sucked for many years before they were good so they didn't exactly build a base with the adults in town. The kids back then are just becoming adults with  families. It takes time to build a fan base.

Most people who live here aren't from here. I still love my Reds. I'm not switching. I enjoy watching the Rays but its not the same passion. In Tampa you have tons of folks from everywhere.

There is a ton of other stuff to do in the bay area, beaches, theme parks, lakes and year around youth sports. Making that 70 to 90 minute drive in traffic sucks too.

HD TV. Why sit in that crap when you can watch from home?

Unemployment in the bay area is over 12%. People are struggling over there.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/2/2011 10:34:44 AM #

They should draw close to what we draw, is what I think. Maybe less, maybe more. But they shouldn't be at the very bottom.

I think if Miami draws fans maybe the city will reconsider the issue?

Mary
Mary
10/2/2011 10:27:12 AM #

Just have to crow a bit today, as my Spartans beat The Ohio State University Buckeyes in Columbus yesterday.  I'm going to have to give my sister (OSU alum, current employee of) a call and see how she enjoyed the game.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 10:37:11 AM #

Crow all you want. Don't get used to it. You better beat a team missing its 3 best offensive weapons from 2010 a stud LT and the best coach they've had in decades.

Umm and it was just a 10 to 7 win vs the worst offense I've seen in 25 years.

Guess what! I just beat the crap out of Roy Jones Jr. Sure his right are and left leg were broken and he was temporarily blinded from a ghost pepper accident. OK I still lost 3 teeth and my jaw is broken but I still took him down.

M State should have beaten them 30-0.

Mary
Mary
10/2/2011 10:41:03 AM #

The worst offense may have been the result of facing the #1 defense in the country

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 10:44:25 AM #

I'm with Mary! Anytime someone beats THEOhio State University,I'm a happy man. THEOhio State University? Silly and pretentious!

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/2/2011 11:18:04 AM #

Soon enough they will just be THE

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 10:48:51 AM #

Lohse is fine as long as he is rolling. When things get tight, he gags. You could see it in his face when he was facing Howard just before the HR. Howard fouled off a couple of tough pitches and Lohse started "hoping" he could get him out.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 12:23:12 PM #

they still should have beaten them 30-0.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 1:17:34 PM #

I wish they would have.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 12:45:11 PM #

Bengals looking to solve this guy

www.onionsportsnetwork.com/.../

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 12:47:09 PM #

And I can laugh at something not in my self interest

www.onionsportsnetwork.com/.../

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/2/2011 5:01:20 PM #

Anytime someone talks about how 'good' managers take their teams to the playoffs, please remember this chart:

espn.go.com/.../the-perils-starting-short-rest-october

It's amazing hos something so simple (like realizing there's a freaking reason you don't start a guy on three days' rest 99.9% of the time) gets forgotten by guys getting paid millions to win baseball games.

genewv
genewv
10/2/2011 6:47:01 PM #

Good read, Ash.

Funny how managers will often talk about how important it is to keep a SP on their regular schedule, then vary from that when the most important games come up.

The head might know the playoff game is really, really, important, is the exception to the rule, the arm, on the other hand, has no idea at all how important the game is--- just that it it is not rested.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/2/2011 6:58:12 PM #

Greinke's given up 4 runs through 5 innings... at home.

I get it - he was 11-0 in Milwaukee. But it just doesn't work like that.

genewv
genewv
10/2/2011 8:08:14 PM #

Yep. No doubt. My guess is he had normal days off on all 11 of them--or more.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/2/2011 6:57:48 PM #

Two NFL thoughts:

1. Andy Dalton is good enough that he may make me care about the Bengals going forward. How bout that second half he put together!?

2. Why ANYONE would bet on the NFL is beyond me. Look at today's games - huge comeback by the Lions; upset and comeback by the Niners; upset by the Bengals; upset by the Chiefs; upset by the Texans; road wins by the Titans and Redskins; and currently, Seattle is down just 2 to the Falcons and the Giants are losing the Cardinals.

Every week it's like March Madness. Don't get me wrong, it's great - but how bad a gambling problem do you have if you're trying to bet on these games?

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 7:31:30 PM #

Almost as much of a problem as betting on baseball.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/2/2011 10:09:04 PM #

I'm 37-27 against the spread so far and 47-16 picking games on Espn's pick em thing.

Clearly I need to head to Vegas. Issue is I'm in the top 5% against the spread.....so about 75% of participants would be giving money to Vegas lol.

genewv
genewv
10/2/2011 8:09:41 PM #

I got an idea.Why don't we ask Pete?

genewv
genewv
10/2/2011 8:11:48 PM #

Soccer,

Any word around Cincy on the conference realignment possibilities?

I read on the WVU board today they were rumored to be on their way out of the BE? Of course, rumors on realignment are as plentiful as noses--everyone has one.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 10:13:21 PM #

Pretty much under the radar right now. The last I heard is UC and Louisville might be a package deal to the Big 12.

genewv
genewv
10/2/2011 10:33:28 PM #

Same here. They are all over the place--rumors, that is.

I hope UC lands soft for all you guy's sake.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 11:21:23 PM #

That was insane a couple of weeks ago. When that kind of stuff happens out in the open in the media, nothing good can come of it. I feel much more comfortable letting the suits do their thing in the background.

Statmom
Statmom
10/2/2011 9:00:40 PM #



Looks like Crypenter doesn't like the feel of the Phillies baseballs.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 9:29:16 PM #

Is there Carp on twitter who only explains things to his son? If not we should be that Carp.

rpa
rpa
10/2/2011 10:08:27 PM #

http://twitter.com/#!/ChrisCrypenter

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/2/2011 9:42:32 PM #

what is that tool bitching about now?

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/2/2011 10:16:31 PM #

SocSon came home for the day to watch The Little Guy play football and do some laundry. He was watching with us and said Carpenter "is foul looking.He looks like a bug."
He's got a point.

rpa
rpa
10/2/2011 11:24:04 PM #

He doesn't look as much like a bug as Dave Duncan looks like a muppet, though.

bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/.../...ge.jpg

Like if Jim Henson and George Lucas got together and tried to create a muppet Emperor Palpatine

reasonswhyimstillsingle.files.wordpress.com/.../emperor_palpatine.jpg

rpa
rpa
10/2/2011 11:33:33 PM #

Notes for this evening

1) It's amazing what it does for my mental state knowing I can wake up at 7:00 tomorrow and just go to work instead of having to head to the airport.  I have had more TSA gropedowns in the last 8 weeks than any one person should have to endure in a lifetime.  The scanner at ROC doesn't work right, I tell you.

2) I don't get why Kurt Wagner never really got famous.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnYG7c4-ego

3) I am looking for book suggestions.  Just finished re-reading Infinite Jest during this last extended road trip.  Amazing how a book can seem so different upon re-reading 10 years later.

Meh.  Back to simulating year 2035.

Statmom
Statmom
10/2/2011 11:43:39 PM #



Now we are on the horns of a proverbial rooting dilema . . .  Arthur Rhodes is pitching for the WLB's.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 12:58:02 AM #

What a BS write up this is. The Bengals might have a tool of an owner and the fans may not turn out(especially to see the stars of Buffalo). Is that any reason to bash the players.

This is a young team playing with a chip on is shoulder. Some people didn't see them winning 3 or 4 games. The media called them a joke. My guess is many guys on the team wondered what direction this team would take. Christ, they got excited for winning another one they were supposed to lose. They came back again after a bad 1st half. I don't have time to spell this a-holes name but but I do have time to say F**K off.

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 1:02:15 AM #

One last thing...fans of the Bengals still love Football and would kill for a good product on the field. Not showing up is as much about bad management and a lack of concern for the fans of this city as it is about a bad team and losing.

The only bad thing about this team winning is that if they continue to play well then people will start to show up to watch these exciting young players. At that point Brown may feel justifies in his cheap pigheadedness.

I guess either way he's think he was right so it wouldn't matter.

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/3/2011 9:25:56 AM #

Good artical Champ...if you're looking for something to line the bottom of a birdcage. How does the fact that fans don't show up to protest a nutbag owmer detract from the thorough dismantling of an undefeated team? The Bills are pretenders, anyway. They put up decent offensive numbers against the AFC East where there is little emphasis on defense. Let's see how they do outside that division before we crown them as a playoff team, huh? And, if anyone believes the Bills' fate was changed by a "questionable" no catch call, perhaps they should watch some film on just about every Bengal's game the last decade. Hell, the refs tried to screw them yesterday on the placement of the Dalton dive in the 4th quarter but Lewis and the TV booth wouldn't play along. The Bills and their supporters in the media are the NFL equivalent of the WLBs.  

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 9:35:24 AM #

Once again I should stop typing in the dark at 1 am.

That guy really ticked my off. I could find no bias for his opinion. He is not a buffalo guy nor did cover them or others in the area. He's worked for big papers and ESPN. It wouldn't be the first stupid thing he's written but that can be said for most opinion oriented columnists.

Whatever to him. Jackhole.

DocProc
DocProc
10/3/2011 10:03:27 AM #

Just now read the article and agree with you completely, Champ.  And Dawg, you're so right about the placement of the ball on that Dalton dive.  Unbelievable.  The Bengals have every right to celebrate that victory, against all odds.

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/3/2011 10:21:45 AM #

It's the dang NFL.  Games between good and bad teams can swing on the bounce of one ball on one play, let along two evenly matched opponents playing a physical brand of football.  A team that gets a vctory in the NFL has every right to celebrate.  This is not the big 162 in baseball.  Woj is a complete jackwagon.

That said, IMHO, Bengals fans are doing the right thing by staying away from the games.  Mike Brown took over the Bengals operations in 1991.  Since then he's gotten a lease from Hamilton County that could nearly bankrupt the government, he's drafted and signed players that continue to break the law and embarrass the city, had two playoff appearances and no playoff wins, refuses to get a GM or a real scouting staff (when everyone knows that building through the draft, especially in a small market, is crucial), won't upgrade facilities or put in an indoor practice field, and does very little in the way of community activities.  Enough is enough

DocProc
DocProc
10/3/2011 10:26:13 AM #

Oh, I agree completely.  I didn't buy a ticket last week or this week because I refuse to support Mike Brown.  His failure to hire a GM is his biggest shortcoming, but there are plenty of other reasons why he's the worst owner in professional sports.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/3/2011 10:48:22 AM #

The PA announcer at The Little Guy's football game gave updates late in the game as the Bengals tied and eventually won the game. That was met with a massive outbreak of yawns. The opposite of love isn't hate,it's apathy. I'm not really sure there is anything short term that can cure that. The Bengals are not the favorite team of The Little Guy or any of his friends.They have lost a generation of fans.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/3/2011 11:06:58 AM #

There are a ton of things that bother me about Mikey Boy.  The main thing-my father didn't splurge for much in our lives, but he loved the Reds and the Bengals.  He bought season tickets for both in 1968-two seats, Red Section just below the JumboTron for the Reds, which he was allowed to buy for the Bengals in 1970.  Until Cinergy came down, my brother and I continued with those seats and then declined to get season tix at GASP.

Mikey Boy decided, when PBS was built, to charge COAs-seat licenses.  A group of season ticket holders (us included) were sure the Bengals would show a little loyalty to us.  Right.  They wanted $2500 per seat for the right to purchase those seats.  That's when I knew Mikey Boy didn't care about anything but his bottom line.  My brother and I declined.

I am not giving that elderly super miser another penny.  And I'm sure Katie is the same way.  I really don't care at this point if they hire a GM or not.

On a side note...in 1970, my dad worked for a company on the side that made High School yearbooks.  The corporation, at that time, was based in Green Bay.  As a bonus that year, my dad got 5 shares of Green Bay Packers stock-one for each family member.  So I have one share.  I was 5 at the time, Sycamore's colors are green & gold, the Packers are green & gold, so...who's my favorite team?

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/3/2011 11:10:06 AM #

Champ...I don't know of any national columnist or Sports Center talking head that gives Cincinnati sports teams the time of day.  If anything, it's, "Oh, wow!  The Reds/Bengals/Bearcats/Muskies are undefeated.  Now, in New York..."

I stopped listening to and reading that drivel a long time ago.

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 11:19:08 AM #

I believe the studies that come out and show the cost for a family of 4 to go to a game showed the Bengals are only a few bucks cheaper than going to a Jets or Giants game.  Cost of living in Cincinnati is far less than it is in New York.  There should be a fairly significant difference in ticket costs.  Hell the Colts tickets are fairly cheaper than tickets to watch the Bengals and all they have done the last decade is win ball games.  Sure this year they aren't that good, but they are also missing one of the best players in NFL history.

There is no value added in going to a Bengals game.  Sure yesterday they played well but it's the same old song and dance with them.  They got me back in 2005.  I really bought in that Marvin was the guy, and Brown let him have some control.  The team was a joy to watch and they had some great personalities surrounding the team.  So since then we've had what, 1 winning season to compliment it and a whole shit ton of bad football and incompetent leadership along the way.  Brown took any power Lewis had, Lewis and all those young talented players in 2005 became Bengalized.  The key pieces of that team are gone and now we have a whole new crop of young talented players, who in 3 or 4 years will end up leaving disgruntled and we'll say wow we really squandered a great talent like Dalton and Green.  Much like we've said about so many other potentially great young players who all became Bengalized who left Cincinnati and disappeared into obscurity.

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 11:27:01 AM #

How the hell did Cliff Lee go from looking like the greatest post season pitcher in MLB history, to Edinson Volquez in the post season? lol.  

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 1:01:37 PM #

I love Ohio State, and for those of you who hate them, you will enjoy the next 3 games immensely.  @Nebraska, Illinois, and Wisconsin will all be ugly games.  Last year I was on top of the world.  Reds were in the playoffs, Buckeyes were a top 5 team and poised to make a title run.  This year, the Reds were bad and the Buckeyes are really bad.  2011 is not a fun sports year for me.  Although I am excited to watch the basketball Bucks, they should be pretty tough this season.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/3/2011 2:31:49 PM #

If the Buckeyes weren't associated with the university, I would probably be a fan.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 1:07:51 PM #

There with you on the bad run of my teams. I still have loyalty to my TB Bucs and Rays. There is some positive stuff going on there. I love them but they aren't my passion.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 1:24:22 PM #

Boardwalk Empire continuing to kick ass

River Otter
River Otter
10/3/2011 5:18:29 PM #

Good to know.  I watched it last year, but haven't had a chance to watch any of the new episodes yet.

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 1:44:23 PM #

this is educational baseball reading

www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../...ing-non-tenders.html

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/3/2011 2:27:43 PM #

BT- don't cash in your Buckeye stamps just yet. Boom Herron, Posey and another player I can't think of are due back from suspension, next week. I thin an O-lineman. The freshman QB is maturing. That should put a little flavor in that vanilla offense. The defense has played pretty well considering the field position, time of pssession etc that they have been forced to deal with. I'm not saying they'll get all 3 games, but 2 isn't out of the realm of possibilty.

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 2:53:08 PM #

Some more news came out today.  Boom is going to get one more game and Posey may get a few more because of money they accepted for a summer job.  I guess the NCAA deemed they were paid too much for the job they did.  Adams coming back will help the O-line which has been horrible.

I love the team, it's just going to be a rough year.  If they can make it through with 5 losses or fewer, I will be pleasantly surprised.  I still watch the games, I just can't see them winning any of their games in October.

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 2:54:32 PM #

Some more news came out today.  Boom is going to get one more game and Posey may get a few more because of money they accepted for a summer job.  I guess the NCAA deemed they were paid too much for the job they did.  Adams coming back will help the O-line which has been horrible.

I love the team, it's just going to be a rough year.  If they can make it through with 5 losses or fewer, I will be pleasantly surprised.  I still watch the games, I just can't see them winning any of their games in October.

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/3/2011 3:47:59 PM #

I had no idea. In this case I agree. No way they beat Nebraska or Wisconsin, now and little chance against Illinois. Jeez, those are some expensive freaking tatoos, huh?

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 5:04:41 PM #

Sounds like many feel that Posey could be done.  Also Jordan Hall is suspended for this weekend again as he was one of the guys implicated too.  Turns out this booster is the same guy who was behind the Charity situation that had extra players suspended for the first 3 games.

The NCAA has delayed their ruling on what sanctions Ohio State will get.  I have a bad bad feeling they are losing scholarships and bowl games now.

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/3/2011 5:16:45 PM #

Maybe it's not too late to get on the South Florida bandwagon for a few years. I enjoy Ohio State football because they used to do things the right way. That and they always have talent worth watching. I guess that will all change for now.

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/3/2011 5:54:21 PM #

They talent is still there.  It's very very very young.  I loved Jim Tressel.  he did so many great things in the community and did make a positive influence on many lives, both football and not football related.  All of this aside, I have to say I don't think he was as Squeaky Clean as his image may have indicated.  All that being said, Woody Hayes admitted to handing players money if they were short and needed some help.

I'll stick by my Buckeyes, but it's going to be a rough year, and it could get even worse depending on what the NCAA comes back with, but this too shall pass!  

Champ Summers
Champ Summers
10/3/2011 5:21:09 PM #

If you get on the USF bandwagon you are dead to me. F the Bulls.

R U kidding me. They took a couple hundred bucks. The NCAA needs to get over itself. This is happening with every major program. Boosters like this exist everywhere. They are all over the UF campus. I have a couple sources telling me it played a big role in Meyer getting out of town. He was sick of the game.

rpa
rpa
10/3/2011 5:54:52 PM #

The NCAA has been a joke for a long time.  But soon, when we have the 4 big 16-team conferences, there won't be much point the NCAA anymore, at least not for the big-money schools.  I figure they will just leave.  And the NCAA will basically be kinda like I-AA.  If they continue to exist at all.

River Otter
River Otter
10/3/2011 5:35:15 PM #

This made me laugh, but I'm not an alum of OSU or MSU (language warning):  www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/.../an-excerpt-of-matt-millen-and-sean-mcdonough

If OSU is going to get a bowl ban, this might be a good year for it.

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/3/2011 10:21:18 PM #

"it was the worst experieve of my life until I watched this game"   Hahaha! Now that my friends is first class graveyard humor. I really needed a laugh. That supplied one. Thanks!

genewv
genewv
10/3/2011 10:30:13 PM #

RF, Soccer, BJ,

One of the more dependable insiders at WVU just tweeted about a hour ago that WVU would be leaving the BE tomorrow, going to the SEC on Wed.

Nothing, of course, is a sure thing in the world of Twitter, realignment, but this guy has been one of the more dependable inside info guys for at least a couple years on the BGN insider board.

My guess is he is probably right, though the timing of the announcements might be off somewhat.

If there is all smoke, and no fire, I just eat a little crow for the eleventyth time this year.

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/3/2011 11:49:35 PM #

Gene, in the world of realignment, there is no crow.  What is right today is wrong tomorrow.  It's constantly changing.  With Missouri likely out of the picture though, I believe WVU is the best the SEC could do other than say FSU, which isn't happening.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/4/2011 9:29:03 AM #

I heard a rumor last night from a UCAT-a longtime one at that (graduated in 83)-that once UC gets settled in the Athletic Department, they are going to push for an alliance with the Big 10.

Then again, he said they were also going to the ACC and SEC in the next few weeks.

I have an idea.  How about a mega conference for all schools not based in New York or California.  We can call it the BIG FLYOVER CONFERENCE

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/4/2011 9:43:27 AM #

Does anyone know what happens to all the money the NCAA gets in fines and the "surrendering" of past bowl game checks? Could it be a conflict of interest to fine schools for infractions? The more infractions you can imply, discover, prove or allege, the deeper your pockets get. I assume the money is then used for compliance investigations. Hence, a perpetual motion money machine. Everyone knows that infractions can be found at verying levels at evry school. It's just a bottomless money mine... and with money comes power. Just ask the federal government.

genewv
genewv
10/4/2011 10:26:39 AM #

Jabber,

I like it!

Dawg,

Interesting question. i think we ought to get our RO "retainer" lawyer right on it--while he still works cheap.

Calling Grizz.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 2:25:56 PM #

Ian Kinsler, a.k.a. 'The Best Second Baseman in Baseball in 2011' just led of game four with a homer.

I had no idea how good this guy was before I looked up - 32 HR/30 steals, an .835 OPS and 7.7 WAR. Holy Crap.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/4/2011 2:39:32 PM #

OK, Ash...I guess I should know this...DatDude compares how?  Or does he pale in comparison?

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 3:07:48 PM #

Phillips is darned good - 18 HR/14 steals, an .810 OPS and 6.0 WAR

Basically, Kinsler has more power, more speed, and gets on base more; Phillips had a higher batting average and is a little better with the glove (though Kinsler is Gold Glove worthy in the AL).

Oh, and Kinsler signed a 5 year, $22 mil deal in 2008 that expires in 2013.

If there's one thing I've noticed, it's that second basemen are underpaid. Outside of Utley's contract, the other top guys - Weeks, Kinsler, Cano, Pedroia - all seem to be vastly outperforming their contracts.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 3:10:18 PM #

And that's really the trouble with Phillips' trying to get 'market value.' What is it?

Pedroia, Cano, and Kinsler are all better than Brandon, but lower paid.
Uggla and Utley aren't as good as Brandon, but get paid a lot more.

The best comp, to me, is Rickie Weeks, which is where I think the Reds need to hold the line - 4 years, $38 mil (which would bring up the total, including next year's option, to 5 years, $50 mil).

But I have a sneaking suspicion Brandon wants in Uggla and Utley's tax bracket, which, to me, is absolutely out of the question if you want to win in 2013 and beyond.

DocProc
DocProc
10/4/2011 3:12:27 PM #

Agree with everything you just said.

River Otter
River Otter
10/4/2011 4:33:40 PM #

Me too

genewv
genewv
10/4/2011 3:33:02 PM #

Over the years, second basemen have probably been the easiest defenders in the IF to replace. However, a good SS is a absolute, first and third can bring you defense, but are more looked upon for power, RBI guys, then the defense, and the catcher must be a handler of pitchers, defender first.

Second basemen are kind of looked upon as options, that is, they can bring you either, or, ( defense, or offense ) and the club will be satisfied. For the most part, they have been defensive guys that bat second, 7th and 8th, contact hitters, can bunt, hit and run, etc. There have always been an abundance of either SS that did not quite make the grade at that demanding position, or old veterans that can bring their experience,multiple skills, which although they might be on a downward decline, are good for a couple seasons.

BP is a different type, of course, with the great glove, range, arm, and the bat, etc. ( most 2nd basemen that have been moved from SS lack either range, or the arm, or both ). This is the one IF position that is a lot like the bullpen--easier to replace than others, so, not that not many big contracts have been handed out until recently, some of them in the steroid era, which is now over.

Someone may give BP the really big bucks, contract extension, but it will not be us. JMO.

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/4/2011 4:12:14 PM #

Gene - concerning WVU and the SEC.  From everything I'm hearing and reading it certainly looks like Missouri is the most likely candidate but Missouri has to decide whether they are all in on a new revamped BIG 12 or if they are going to jump ship (which likely means they are heading to the SEC).  This decision should come soon - perhaps even tonight.  If Missouri decides they are committed to the BIG 12 I think WVU comes to the SEC and you'll see that announcement in a few days.

There is a part of me that just feels upon reading everything and trying to read between the lines that Missouri does feel more inclined to try and rebuild the BIG 12 but of course it's difficult to know what's going on behind closed doors.  

I really would not be surprised if WVU and the SEC have basically reached an agreement pending the Missouri decision.  

Could the SEC take both?

I want to go on record stating I don't like the mega-conference idea, not one bit.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 4:34:58 PM #

Adrian Beltre is crazy.

genewv
genewv
10/4/2011 4:36:10 PM #

RF,

Pretty much the same scenario on this end, but powers that be seem to think Missouri is a no to the SEC, in the end. Using that invite to get all the leverage than can to get financial commitments from the Big 12. If they leave the Big 12, that is our next invite.

Of course, there are other scenarios out there as well, even staying in the BE with a ND coming in, etc., etc. etc.However, I think one of the two we just mentioned will be the way it turns out. We shall see.

However it all turns out is disgusting to me. Obviously, I want WVU to have a soft landing, but I would have much preferred the BE stay put as is, or expand a little. Greed is a mighty driver of men, unfortunately.

genewv
genewv
10/4/2011 4:38:29 PM #

Ash,

I can remember when he was the next big can't miss super star. I guess today, he found some of the lightening in a bottle left over in his locker.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 5:15:35 PM #

You know what's crazy?

Since 1996, Scott Rolen's been a 73.9 win player. That's a borderline HOF total.

Since 1998, Adrian Beltre's been a 56.3 win player.

Give Beltre two more years at the rate of the last two (around 6.5 a year), and you're looking at just about the same guy (Rolen's still slightly better, but only by a few wins).

Plus, Beltre will STILL be under contract for two more years at that point. We could legitimately be talking about Beltre for the Hall of Fame at some point in the future, which just seems insane until you look at his stats, which are much, MUCH better than I ever thought.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 5:17:19 PM #

You know why we might not realize how good Beltre's been? He's only been to 2 All-Star games, and that's just been the last two seasons. How did that happen?

Meanwhile, Rolen's a 7 time All-Star.

Pretty  much, they're almost the same player, except one got national attention and one didn't.

DocProc
DocProc
10/4/2011 5:24:05 PM #

Of course, his 2004 aberration season sure screamed "ROIDS."

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 5:25:24 PM #

Absolutely - but weren't they testing in 04?

River Otter
River Otter
10/4/2011 5:33:25 PM #

I think part of the reason Beltre hasn't received as much national love is that he's been up and down throughout his career.  In contrast, Rolen was consistently very good to great during his first 8 years or so, i.e., until he started to be plagued by injuries.  But I have to admit that Beltre has had more terrific years than I remembered.

River Otter
River Otter
10/4/2011 5:20:51 PM #

Sorry to see the Rays were eliminated.  To support our Detroit connection, I'll now root for the Tigers.

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/4/2011 5:39:37 PM #

Didn't see the Rays dropping three in a row like they did.  

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/4/2011 5:43:14 PM #

The Brewers sweep tonight.  I also feel like the Tigers have a good shot at winning tonight also.  Should be a high scoring game regardless.

River Otter
River Otter
10/4/2011 6:04:00 PM #

BiancaTai Bianca LaRussa
by AmyKNelson
Happy birthday @TonyLaRussa...doin all the good luck rituals & wearing the appropriate lucky clothing to give you a win as a gift #stlcards

It's probably for the best she didn't go into detail about the rituals and clothing.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/4/2011 6:15:27 PM #

So...many...comments...I want...to make....

I'll resist though, for the good of everyone.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/4/2011 7:02:09 PM #

Boomp tee ays and underwear that doesn't cover your butt. I'm sure the rituals have to do with collecting $25.00 and dancing very close to someone for a couple of songs.

Amy
Amy
10/4/2011 7:39:26 PM #

Mary?? Was that you on the field???

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/4/2011 7:58:18 PM #

I saw her scampering about,on a college football field on Saturday.

Mary
Mary
10/4/2011 9:37:57 PM #

must have been my identical twin cousin

Statmom
Statmom
10/4/2011 8:15:50 PM #


I'm gonna watch the WLB's this last inning before I get started with the evening's chores.  Pujols leads off with a double.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/4/2011 8:22:54 PM #

I hate Molina

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/4/2011 8:26:06 PM #

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Statmom
Statmom
10/4/2011 8:26:55 PM #



And the Phillies hang on to beat the WLB's in a close one.

I will go pack some lunches and then try and catch the next game.

genewv
genewv
10/4/2011 8:32:25 PM #

Ash,

Another great difference in Rolen and Beltre is the Gold Glove fielding, clubhouse presence, work ethic,. Rolen is in a class by himself with the glove, attitude, and what he generally brings to the team, much of which is intangible.

I take Rolen over and over against Beltre. JMO.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/4/2011 11:44:54 PM #

Every day and twice on Sunday. Rolen may be a borderline Hall of Famer. Beltre may be borderline one of those guys you don't even want on your team, numbers notwithstanding.

genewv
genewv
10/4/2011 9:43:05 PM #

RF,

Looks as if Missouri has postponed its decision, so the soap opera drags on.

I like my crow with a little salt.

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/4/2011 10:36:51 PM #

Gene - of course how could it have gone any other way.  I feel a little stupid for thinking it might actually resolve soon.  

Can someone remind me what was so wrong with the old 10 team conferences once again.  And forget the whole Championship game BS.  

rpa
rpa
10/5/2011 12:21:42 AM #

Re: Phillips.  At his age, and given his skill set, anything over $10 mil is too much.  I hope they let him walk.

Re: Rolen vs. Beltre - Beltre has been healthier, and that makes up for much of that statistical difference.  Although I find it amusing that Baseball Reference lists Beltre as Rolen's top comp.  But Vinny Castilla is Beltre's.   In any case, check out what an "average" 162 game season is for Rolen: .282/.366/.494, 26 HR, 104 RBI.  Beltre: .276/.329/.469, 26 HR, 92 RBI.  So Rolen has a bit more discipline at the plate, otherwise they are quite similar offensively.  Beltre was not quite what Rolen was with the glove, but he is probably above average overall as a 3B.  Clubhouse presence aside (I still think of the Philly fans I know that don't think much of Rolen, though) it seems that Rolen is a little better, and Beltre has been a lot more durable.  Of course, Beltre was a full-time major league player a couple of years younger than Rolen was, and he has had a couple of huge seasons.  Rolen, meanwhile, has been lucky to have a couple of seasons where he played in 150 games.  I don't think either one of them gets in the Hall, if only because the Hall seems to hate 3Bs.  Seriously.  There's like 4 of them in there total.

Re: realignment.  I talked to a reasonably well connected UConn fan today that sees them going ACC or going nowhere.  This same person also sees them winning "maybe one" Big East football game this year.  And since Boston College hasn't really forgiven UConn for that whole lawsuit thing back when BC left the conference (although they seem to have forgiven Pitt?) it isn't going to happen.  Meh.  I think Cincinnati is going to wind up in the MAC.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/5/2011 9:13:09 AM #

One thing about DatDude and then I'll shut up.

He was hitting out of position for most of this year.  Let's project his OPS/WAR/whatever stat I can't think of over the course of a season hitting leadoff.  What does that do to the season-not just for BP but for the team?  Does it increase the winning percentage?  I know all about hindsight and all that crap.  This is my main argument as to how valuable he truly is to the Reds.  That's how you pay him.

RF...10 team conferences would be my preference, if there was a playoff system in place.  Take money out of the equation and let the decision on who is number 1 be decided on the field.  Mega conferences dilute the talent pool too much, which is probably why you hate the idea.  If the SEC expanded to 16 teams, Coach Cal would definitely lose out on prospects to a Mizzou, Texas A&M, WVU and <gasp!> University of Cincinnati (like UK wouldn't block entry into the SEC).  Think about it.  Regionally, who are the colleges, if the SEC expanded, that make the most sense?  Loserville, UC, WVU, Memphis and Pitt.  Unless the SEC wanted to steal UNC, NC State, Wake, Miami and Florida State from the ACC.

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/5/2011 10:08:03 AM #

With the inclusion of Texas A & M next season, the SEC is a 13 team conference, meaning they ned only three schools to complete their hypothetical 16 team alignment.

I don't get what Texas and Oklahoma are doing.  The Big 12 is dead, maybe not today but soon enough.  Why not join the Big Ten (Oklahoma, Texas, OK State, and one of Pitt, MIzzou, or Notre Dame)?  Convert the Longhorn Network into the BIGTEN2 network, and you'll increase viewership of both big ten channels by millions instantly by carrying some games on both channels (thereby forcing carriers in TX, for instance, to add BIGTEN1 to their lineups so that they can watch a TX or OK out of conference game early in the season.  The newly added schools get equity stakes in a big revenue conference, stability, while the current bigten schools get more national title consideration and more viewers for their current network.

River Otter
River Otter
10/5/2011 11:12:37 AM #

Sounds good on paper, but I can't see the B1G admitting Oklahoma or Oklahoma State because I don't think either are AAU schools.  The school presidents signed off on Nebraska because it was an AAU member at the time of the invite (although they were subsequently voted out thanks in part to the presidents of Wisconsin and Michigan -- way to stab your incoming co-conference school in the back).  There's no doubt that money is the driving factor in these decisions, but academics continues to play a role in the B1G.  One of the perks of becoming a member of the B1G is the Committee on Institutional Cooperation (which includes the University of Chicago).

I also can't see Texas ever joining the B1G because of its unwillingness to equally share revenue, although your BIGTEN2 network idea is intriguing.  Pitt and Mizzou probably wouldn't generate enough additional revenue to justify adding them to the conference (it would probably dilute what the other schools already net), but either might make sense if Notre Dame ever decided to join.  However, Notre Dame probably won't give up on its independent status until it has to.

River Otter
River Otter
10/5/2011 11:25:30 AM #

Gene, I thought you might enjoy this article on Jerry West:  www.grantland.com/.../the-winter-jerry-west

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/5/2011 1:11:02 PM #

You know what's disgusting? Watching the Diamondbacks win a playoff game with a rookie they called up mid-season and gave a job, both on the hill and on the mound.

Even more disgusting is seeing that one of their most valuable players was Ryan Roberts, a 'utility' player who had never been good enough to start in the majors.

All I keep thinking is if the Reds had played a couple rookies and a 'fourth outfielder' (Yonder, Francisco and Heisey) after, oh, June 15, when it was obvious that Rolen wasn't healthy and Stubbs/Gomes/Lewis were simply terrible, maybe we'd have been in the race on July 31. And then maybe we would have gone out and gotten a Michael Bourn or a Ubaldo Jiminez or a Wandy Rodriguez or a James Shields, and maybe when Atlanta fell apart, it would have been us making a run towards the postseason.

Or maybe not. But here's what I know - the Reds sitting on their hands and playing unproductive players with productive ones on the bench and at AAA didn't work.

DocProc
DocProc
10/5/2011 1:12:28 PM #

Preach it.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/5/2011 1:17:01 PM #

Since, I got encouragement, here goes:

Arizona wasn't in first place from April through July. They didn't overtake the Giants - who everyone assumed would repeat as division champs - until the middle of August.

But when they had a hole, they filled it - that first baseman that hit the Grand Slam? He's not a better prospect than Yonder. He was just productive so they filled a hole.

And then they went out and spent at the deadline. Jason Marquis didn't work out, but Aaron Hill has. That filled another hole.

Yes, Arizona was probably better than us all along. And yes, they're probably gonna get bounced from the NLDS. But at least they freaking tried. And I refuse - REFUSE - to believe they're more talented than the Reds. That's simply not the case.

They did everything in their power to win, and they did. And if the Reds had done everything in their power to win, I wouldn't be so freaking bitter. But they didn't.

Ugh.

(I'll try not to rant like this too often this offseason. But I'm gonna have to let off some steam every once in awhile, I'm afraid).

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/5/2011 1:15:40 PM #

If maybes and and buts were candy and nuts...

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/5/2011 1:17:49 PM #

The point is Walt didn't even freaking try. And I don't think that should be too much to ask.

DocProc
DocProc
10/5/2011 1:23:16 PM #

I don't blame Walt.  Walt traded Gomes and brought up Alonso.  Walt brought up a lot of youngsters, too.  Dusty just refused to play them.

genewv
genewv
10/5/2011 1:33:54 PM #

Otter,

Thanks much for the Jerry West read. Being from here, a BB nut all my life, nothing in that article surprises me about West. The first game I ever really remember watching was that 1959 NC game with Cal. I think, in lots of ways, that night, I decided I wanted to be a BB coach--never changed my mind once. I have read multiple articles over the years about him, never get tired of them. This one pretty much brings a nice summation of them all--very well done, with great insight to Jerry West the man.

I really appreciate the find, heads up.

Is it not strange how winning, for so many ( including myself ), was often more relief than exhilaration? More not having to answer why than enjoying the moment. I still remember the losses more than the wins.

Funny, I just watched the movie "Secretariat" before getting on here. Brought back memories I had not had since retirement in 2002, then you posted this article, to complete the entire nostalgia trip. I am just now getting to the point I can really enjoy a lot that transpired in my coaching career. Crazy.

Anyway, thanks, again.
Life sure is strange, huh?

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/5/2011 2:18:50 PM #

Ash...I would like to believe that Walt tried, but within reason-not mortgaging the future.  I also would like to believe that Dusty decided he was going to get as many wins as he could his way.  I don't think he and Walt had the same way.  I was kind of hoping Walt would be allowed to wield his trusty Excalibur, dangit!

Gene...did you know (you probably did) Mr. West is the Charity Spokesperson for two PGA tournaments?  The Northern Trust at Riviera Country Club in L.A. and The Greenbrier Classic as well.  His interviews and his speaking engagements for those charities are always top notch.

genewv
genewv
10/5/2011 2:30:41 PM #

I did know about the Greenbrier Classic, not about the other.

A local coal baron, Jim Justice, bought the Greenbrier a couple years ago, is a BB coach himself on the high school level here, thus has had a real athletic bend on all his doings at the Greenbrier--including selling the lounge to Jerry West for this restaurant, bringing the PGA here, etc..

Rumor is he is also bringing a NFL pre-season camp to the Greenbrier in the not too far future.

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/5/2011 2:32:17 PM #

Ash, I agree completely on Arizona.  There is one big difference, though - the managers.  Gibson is a win at all cost team first guy.  I'm still not sure what Dusty is.  I think Dusty's philosophy is that if he makes individuals happy then the team will be happy.  The fundamental problem is that the perception then becomes that individuals are more important than the team.  

I think some of it may be on Walt, but looking back on it now, not so much.  For Walt to have made good moves, he'd have had to trade guys Alonso or Mes.  I am glad he didn't do that.  Some of it was luck.  What if Cozart doesn't go down?  Same with the pitching injuries early.  Some of it was just timing, which leads me to the future.

I know the consensus here is that Coco had a really good year and the Reds should bring him back.  However, when the Reds needed him the most, he was awful.  That one stretch in Milwaukee before the break was the one chance the Reds had to change the season.  Coco blew it.  Even had the Reds gotten back in it there's no guarantee he wouldn't have done the same thing again along with Masset and others.  Dusty played a big part in that too if I recall in how he used him.

I've said all along the Reds are at a crossroads of either picking the route of going young or going in big financially.  Clearly they aren't going to do the latter, but if they want to win they need to do one or the other, IMO.  That means go young except for a few key leaders like Rolen and cheap bench guys like Cairo.  That strategy is clearly the one that works if they aren't going all in like Milwaukee did.  A patchwork mix clearly does not work consistently because the chances of catching lightning in a bottle more than once in a blue moon with guys like Johnny Gomes is very small.  As long as Dusty is around, I just see the Reds trying to mix it up between spending and going young.  I just don't think it will work.  For the Reds to win, they need to totally stay away from free agency or trading for high priced players.  This also means letting guys like Coco walk instead of spending even 4 or 5 million on a guy that could easily turn out worse than Masset.

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/5/2011 2:36:45 PM #

Just to clarify, by totally staying away from free agency, I mean signing guys like Gomes or Fred Lewis with the intent on platoons.  That crap just doesn't work on a consistent basis.  The best strategy for the Reds is to go after a young, talented guy with a chip on his shoulder like BP was or go after a guy who you know what he can do, is on the last few years of his career, and is a clutch player/leader type that plays the game the right way - like Rolen or Johnny Damon.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/5/2011 5:24:39 PM #

Dusty makes sure platoons don't work.  True platoons can work.  Dusty trusts experience over youth and plays it too much.  When Rolen comes back next year, I bet he truly has 85-90 games in him.  Dusty will kill him before the All Star break.  Not actually dead...just DL...I didn't mean to sound so...


final.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/5/2011 6:06:52 PM #

Interesting stuff from Fay's chat today, if he can be trusted:

- Reds were 13-2 when Heisey started in centerfield, and Fay thinks he'll get a lot of time there if Stubbs struggles. But that's only if Stubbs struggles - it's his job right now.

- He thinks the Reds will make a move because Jocketty 'knows they can't sit on their hands.'

- Alonso is the Reds' best trade chip, and he seems to insinuate that he could be gone for pitching help. He also says he could see the Reds trading Bailey and/or Volquez. (Of course, later, he contradicted himself and said that Alonso would be the starting left fielder).

- Baker wanted a trade made at the deadline. Jocketty didn't.

- Marty Brennamen thinks the team will re-sign Hernandez and trade Hanigan.

- Chapman will start next year.

I have no idea if this means anything, but I read it and thought I'd pass it along.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/5/2011 8:07:02 PM #

Fay has said this on Alonso repeatedly.

His feelings aren't inconsistent.

He states Alonso is their best trade chip, and he also states he expects him to start in LF.

I take this to mea if they make a big move, it's going to involve Alonso, but otherwise look for him in left. I prefer him in LF to whatever big move they plan on making.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/5/2011 6:29:33 PM #

Another day, another piece of bitching from the Cardinals.

I swear to Jesus these guys are the worst, and I cannot wait until we don't have to talk about them this series.

www.stltoday.com/.../...1e0-b14d-001a4bcf6878.html

River Otter
River Otter
10/5/2011 8:51:23 PM #

“If there’s one thing this team is not it’s excuse-makers,’’ La Russa said Wednesday as he made yet another excuse for his team of whiners.

genewv
genewv
10/5/2011 7:45:55 PM #

Ash,

No moniker  was ever a better fit than WLB's for the Cards. BP's lasting legacy.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/5/2011 8:05:29 PM #

I hate the Phuckin Phillies.

Mary
Mary
10/5/2011 9:08:36 PM #

another squirrel appearance today

No, I am not closely related to this STL critter

mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Mary
Mary
10/5/2011 9:09:03 PM #

that link is mlb.mlb.com/.../article.jsp

Mary
Mary
10/6/2011 10:58:53 PM #

sounds like the Tigers are feeling the pressure in the bottom of the 7th--two IF hits load the bases with one out, ARod up

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/5/2011 9:17:59 PM #

After noticing that Jonny Gomes was a 1.5 WAR player for the season according to Fangraphs, I will no longer use WAr to make any relevant point about a player's performance.  Gomes can't play defense, can't pinch hit, and can't hit for average.  Hopefully Walt has concluded he cannot play for the Reds again too...  

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 9:15:43 AM #

Wow, I haven't looked at Fangraphs, but I assume the Fangraphs' numbers were kind to him on defense.  I think both Baseball Reference and Fangraphs use the same calcs on offense.  Baseball Reference had him as a .3 WAR player for the Reds (.4 for offense, and -.1 for defense).

I didn't get to see him play much this year, but from the comments on here he did seem to be a bit better defensively.

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/6/2011 9:54:08 AM #

I think he was also 0-the season with the Nationals as a pinch hitter.  He does make the occasional nice play in the outfield, but he'll never be as good as a HZ or Laynce Nix.   He does also seem to hit some timely sac flies, when he's not striking out that is...

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/5/2011 10:13:10 PM #

Holy Arizona! Yay!

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/6/2011 7:33:09 AM #

While watching playoff games the last couple days, with the pitch location box on most of the time, I am left with the perception that even mediocre players on these teams are far better than most of our lineups at pitch recognition. I can't count the times I have thought Stubbs would have swung at that. Or, Bruce would have taken that pitch. Or, Sappelt, Francisco, Sancho, Dog, Heisey, would never have gotten deep enough in the count to see that pitch. Is it possible that this is the biggest difference between a playoof team and a losing one?  

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/6/2011 7:39:24 AM #

,,,ugh...playoff, that is.

DocProc
DocProc
10/6/2011 7:47:57 AM #

Agree completely, Dawg.  Noticed the same thing.  I honestly think the Reds have very few "pitch recognition" hitters (Votto being our best--and I think Alonso is a good one, too).  We have "guess hitters" out the wazzoo--and they usually guess "swing" rather than "take."

genewv
genewv
10/6/2011 8:11:30 AM #

No arguments here on the lack of pitch recognition. Been a pet peeve for sometime.

genewv
genewv
10/6/2011 8:13:53 AM #

I would add, that when guess hitting goes down, pitch recognition goes up. Guess on the first strike in a count,if you must, then go immediately to pitch, location recognition.

Too simple, I know.

genewv
genewv
10/6/2011 8:17:14 AM #

One last note. If you are always going to be a guess hitter, you are never going to be any better than your guesses, will be subject to wild up and down periods, and your talent will never completely come to the top, consistency a part of your baseball DNA..

genewv
genewv
10/6/2011 8:18:17 AM #

Consistency BECOME a part of your baseball DNA.

Yep, it's me again.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/6/2011 8:58:44 AM #

"If you are always going to be a guess hitter, you are never going to be any better than your guesses, will be subject to wild up and down periods..."

The Reds resemble that remark.  Isn't that the responsibility of the hitting coach?  Or maybe we should just say...

What the hell, Mark Berry?

DocProc
DocProc
10/6/2011 9:12:09 AM #

Alas, the hitting coach is Brook Jacoby...

But it's ALWAYS appropriate to say "WHAT THE HELL, MARK BERRY?"

(and btw, Gene's quote is a description of Jonny Gomes)

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/6/2011 9:22:31 AM #

Or Jay Bruce...or Drew Stubbs...or...

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 10:04:05 AM #

I also think most of the good teams will work the count, require the starting pitcher to throw a lot of pitches, etc.  It often seems like Votto is the only player on the team with any plate discipline.

I thought about it during the top of the 3rd in the Brewers' game.  I didn't see Hart's at-bat, but JHJ did a good job of working the count and then ripped a 3-1 pitch for a double to score Hart.  Braun comes up next and draws a walk.  The Brewers now have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs.  I'm thinking this is how a team gets to a pitcher like Saunders.  Of course, Fielder promptly swings at a couple of balls and then weakly flies out; Weeks strikes out (I'm not sure Saunders threw a single strike to him during the at-bat); and Betancourt likewise hacks away and pops out.  I was most disappointed in Fielder's at-bat.  Apparently it's not just the Reds that lack plate discipline.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:22:43 AM #

Anxiety reduces discipline in all aspects of life.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:21:06 AM #

I agree with Gene as usual about being a guess hitter. Video review, scouting reports and your personal memory bank increase the probability of "guessing " right. Pitch recognition is a combination of factors. Knowing a pitcher's tendencies is a big part of it. It reduces the variables in what a pitch may be as it leaves the pitchers hand. Plain God given eyesight is a factor also, however the biggest part of it is concentration and training your eyesight to focus on a small space(target). It makes everything seem bigger and slower. Very similar to marksman /sniper type training. Every hitter who is on a hot streak says,"I'm seeing the ball well now". That means he is focusing on the release point better. One of the best hitting streaks I got in was when I decided to not blink after the pitcher started his windup. You've probably noticed Votto looking out into the distance before he gets in the box. He is probably focusing on a particular seat,sign,person something of that nature to allow him to focus on something closer with more clarity. I'm a firm believer in visual acuity training. The eye has muscles in it that can be trained like any other muscle.

Statmom
Statmom
10/6/2011 10:32:26 AM #



Very well put, Soccerdad.  I am going to show this to Statson when he gets home from school.  Maybe he will take it to heart--hard to tell with a 14.5-year-old.

I also just have to say I do not know how Brook Jacoby keeps his job.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:46:32 AM #

It's hard to be a teacher when the students think they know everything already. I'm not saying it's a fact, but it's a possibility. Good luck with the 14.5 year old. They become 18.5 someday and it gets easier. I think I still have some of my visual acuity drills around here. Get my e mail from the mods if you are interested.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:58:37 AM #

By the way, it works in every sport. My golf game got much better when I focused on striking a particular dimple on the ball instead of the ball itself. I imagine you will be a better foul shooter if you focus on a net attachment loop or a paint blemish on the back of the rim something of that nature.
The Little Guy dropped an interception early this year. We started playing a game called "Catch The Laces" when he wants to throw the ball around.

Statmom
Statmom
10/6/2011 1:10:15 PM #



Thanks,I will check with the mods and may then be in contact with you.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:40:42 AM #

I found this interesting regarding catching mechanics and how many strikes Reds catchers get or lose.
redlegnation.com/.../

Hanigan is vastly improved over a few years ago,when he was terrible. Dog, as we thought is not good. Variables are the pitchers he caught. It's much more difficult to be still and have a quiet glove when the pitcher is all over the place. Hanigan still has that annoying glove flip as the pitch is released. I'm sure it costs strikes. I may be a timing mechanism to allow him to receive the ball cleaner. Risk/reward may be a wash if he catches the ball stronger because of it. The article makes a point of  being still or quiet behind the plate and of catching the ball strong, similar to a gymnast sticking the landing with no movement of the glove as you receive the ball. That is very important also in that you just plain catch more pitches that way and reduce the number of passed balls. The goal on every pitch is to catch it on the part of the palm at the bottom of the index finger or the pocket space between there and the thumb. It also makes a louder pop and help the pitcher psychologically by making him think he is really throwing harder than he is.
The first video in the article is off base. It shows a ball in two different locations. They are both the same height but one is way inside, a much harder pitch to receive. It also says a catcher sets up differently for a breaking ball. You had better not do that. You don't have to be too sharp to pick that up and relay it to the hitter via a verbal signal. Mentally you do,but it had better not be reflected in your physical stance.  

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/6/2011 11:22:32 AM #

Soccer, this stuff is outstanding - both on pitch recognition and catching.  

Folks have already pointed out Fay's contradictions on Alonso.  Really, the one thing he said in the chat that bothered me the most is trading Hanigan and keeping Dog.  Other than bringing back Sancho, that could be the worst mistake the Reds could make.  The chances of Dog putting up those offensive numbers again are slim, IMO.  It's much more important to have a catcher that does a good job of managing a staff - especially when the other guy is so raw still.  That is Hanigan - not Dog.  Frankly, the difference in someone like Bailey or Wood taking another step could be pitching to Hanigan.  

The stats back it up.  When Homer pitched to Hanigan, he was better than Leake.  Leake, Wood, and our favorite whipping boy Masset all were at least a run or more better with Hanigan than Dog.  The reason is that Hanigan commands more strikes than Dog.  I know everyone usually points to maturity, but as someone who pitched a lot, the catcher makes a huge difference.  Since pitching seems to be the Reds biggest problem, one would think these stats would be very important to them.  

Assuming Cueto would have been virtually the same with Hanigan, the stats if projected out indicate that had Hanigan been a full time catcher, the Reds team ERA would have been drastically lower.

DocProc
DocProc
10/6/2011 11:29:57 AM #

I agree with this completely and hope we keep Hanigan not Dog.  However, I also hope Mesoraco does 80% of the catching next year.  And I think the pitchers liked working with him (anyone have his ERA stats handy?)

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 11:41:25 AM #

No, but in the small sample size of watching him, he seems to call a good smart game, thinking of the end game of the at bat,not making crap up on a pitch by pitch basis. He's very quiet behind the plate and seems to make a conscious effort on catching the outside pitch with the glove in. He does a nice job of being ahead of the pitch.It's obvious he has spent time around Corky. The only real flaw I noticed is a long arm when he throws.
I've noticed one of the leading WLBs has had a little trouble blocking some balls in the dirt recently. Maybe he's hurt or wearing down, but he's definitely no moving as well as he usually does. Breaks my heart!

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 11:42:57 AM #

Reading that catching article with the graphs and charts made my head hurt.I got through it though. I need a nap or a drink or both,right now.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 11:45:39 AM #

Mary, do quit streaking across the field! It's not dignified.

Jabberwocky
Jabberwocky
10/6/2011 11:56:01 AM #

It may not be dignified, but she's really cute!

genewv
genewv
10/6/2011 1:01:02 PM #

To use a WV Redneck quote of my own, If you are concentratin', you ain't guessin'.

Can't do both at the same time.

Good stuff, Soccer. Your head ought to hurt.

Concentration is mandatory to reach your potential in any sport--IMO. Some of the most well trained new guys and gals in the art of concentration are bow hunters ( no squirrels! )--target shooters.

Does not mean you cannot be good, if your talent is great, only that you will never maximize your full talents--whatever the sport. Look at what has happened to Tiger Woods since his world turned upside down emotionally. No less skill than he has ever had, just a lot less concentration on one thing--golf.

Amy
Amy
10/6/2011 4:00:56 PM #

Has someone already posted this? Trent's wrapup of the season:

www.cbssports.com/.../32500705

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 5:22:19 PM #

Good summary and recommendations for the off-season.  My only hesitation is Alonso.  It probably makes sense to trade him while his value is at its highest, but I'm worried about the Reds putting all of their eggs in the Stubbs/Heisey/Sappelt basket when it comes to CF and LF.  However, I do think the primary goal this off-season has to be the acquisition of a top of the rotation starter.  The Reds are undoubtedly going to have to give up some quality players/prospects to do so.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/6/2011 5:06:41 PM #

Chapman to start in winter ball, get his pitch counts up to 5 innings.

Minor leagues next year say what?

I predict he's the #5.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:13:04 PM #

I predict he's the #5... behind Shields, Cueto, Leake and Arroyo.

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 5:22:43 PM #

It's great to dream during the off-season . . .

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:18:56 PM #

While we're making predictions, here's what I think will happen to get Shields here:

Yonder, Grandal and Bailey.

Yonder immediately turns into Joey Votto 2.0 at the plate at the Trop, Bailey suddenly becomes consistent, and Grandal becomes their 8th best prospect.

But the Reds have their ace to go along with Cueto, left field is manned by Heisey and Sappelt, and the 2012 Reds are, once again, a 90+ win team.

DocProc
DocProc
10/6/2011 5:23:46 PM #

I could live with that as long as Shields doesn't walk and hit batters, like he did in a recent playoff game.  I hope he's truly an ace if we give up that much for him.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:28:14 PM #

That was one game. Dude had an ERA of 2.82 in the AL East. Stick him in the NL Central, with a steady diet of Houston and Chicago and, of course, the Washingtons and San Franciscos and the like, and he'll be in the running with Halladay, Kershaw and the rest for the ERA title.

DocProc
DocProc
10/6/2011 5:32:00 PM #

I agree he had a great year, but his career numbers aren't much different than Arroyo's.  I'm just not sure he's ace material.  Not saying he isn't--just not sure he is.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 6:09:00 PM #

Pitching against the Yankees and Red Sox and Jays is much different than pitching in the NL Central.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 5:28:40 PM #

You still have heaping pile of dung in center field.

DocProc
DocProc
10/6/2011 5:30:03 PM #

Yep.  I'd rather give up Stubbs than Alonso...but I'm not sure anyone wants him.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:59:38 PM #

If Walt Jocketty can find a way to trade Stubbs for something useful, I'll send him flowers and a gift basket full of pictures of TLR's daughter to say 'thanks.'

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 5:33:19 PM #

Would it take that much to get him?  If the Rays exercised their '12 option (which I understand is $7M) before trading him, would the Reds acquire the right to exercise the '13 and '14 options ($9M and $12M respectively)?  If not, seems like an awful lot to give up for 1 year of Shields.

I'd love to see Shields in the rotation, but I also worry he'll revert to his 2010 form when pitching in GABP.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:43:33 PM #

Guys who believe advance stats say his 2010 was simply horrible luck. Looking at his 2007-2009 and 2011, I'm inclined to believe them. We have 5 years of evidence; four of them are good to great, one of them, not so much.

Unless your name is 'Halladay,' or 'Sabathia' you're gonna have warts. Heck, even Cliff Lee had a down year in the middle of his great run - it happens.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 5:30:35 PM #

Grandal also goes nowhere. You can never have too much catching because they get hurt a lot. We've been lucky recently with the lack of extended DL injuries to catchers.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:34:52 PM #

I disagree 100%. This is Yonder/Votto all over again - you have Hanigan for another, what - 3 years? - and I believe in Mesoroco. There's simply no reason to have both of them if Mesoroco is what we think he is.

Grandal is a frontline prospect we simply don't need, just like Yonder. Use him for what he's good for - trade bait. Just freaking make sure you get what you should for him (i.e. a frontline starter).

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:35:04 PM #

Once Grandal comes up and proves himself,then you trade him or Snacks. You move Hanigan whne Grandal is ready to come up. His value as a proven catcher would be higher than a prospect.

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 5:37:08 PM #

Normally I'd agree, but the Reds would still have Snacks and Hanigan.  I could live with trading Grandal.  

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 5:43:37 PM #

Let's say Snacks hits about .208 for the first 3 months of the year and Hanigan compound fractures a finger. At the risk of sounding like Dusty,rookie catchers scare me a bit.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:46:44 PM #

And let's say the 2012 rotation is Cueto for 25 games, Leake for 27, and a run of garbage the rest of the way... just like what we had in 2011.

We won 79 games - there are a lot bigger issues to worry about than what we do at catcher.

If we can trade a minor league catcher to get a frontline starter to add to Cueto, Leake, a hopefully rejuvenated Arroyo and a potentially ace-like Chapman, that's a risk the Reds HAVE to be willing to take.

River Otter
River Otter
10/6/2011 6:18:31 PM #

Pessimist!  J/k, that's why the Reds should sign Corky to another minor league deal.

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:40:06 PM #

In fact, Soc, I'd say this 'we have to keep all our young guys in case of injuries' mentality is precisely why we sucked in 2011.

Going into the year, having Volquez, Wood, Leake, Cueto, Bailey and Arroyo sure looked like we had a ton of pitching. In fact, though, Wood and Volquez suck and Bailey is Bailey. We could have had a king's ransom for Wood if we wanted, but we held onto him and now we're stuck with a guy who isn't that great. And Volquez very well may be non-tendered.

Same thing in the outfield right now. Alonso/Heisey/Sappelt/Stubbs are all flawed players. All of them (except perhaps Sappelt) would have brought back more in a trade coming into the year than what they gave the Reds in production, either because there aren't enough spots on the field or they suck.

Either way, prospects and young players are horribly unpredictable. Trent's column is spot on - you have two years of Joey Votto left. Freaking go for it while you can.

If you use Grandal, Hamilton, and Yonder (as he suggests) as trade bait, you may or may not be be trading a future all-star; but if you get quality NOW, the deal is worth it no matter what happens. That's what Milwaukee did when they got Marcum and Greinke, and it's the reason they're still playing and the Reds are sitting at home with all their 'talent.'

AshlandATeam
AshlandATeam
10/6/2011 5:50:42 PM #

I'm 80% sure this is my favorite player in baseball not on the Reds. There are a few others I really like watching, but I'm pretty sure this guy's the coolest.

sports.yahoo.com/.../-8216-Tatman-8217-Roberts-covers-D-backs-on-

Dawginnaples
Dawginnaples
10/6/2011 9:33:30 PM #

I'm in the keep Grandal camp. Everyone is expendable if you are getting bowled over, but I wouldn't shop him around. There are probably zero teams who will tell you they have enough ML ready catching. The Reds spent a decade or more looking for cheap free agents, advanced prospects, trade targets, etc. At some point in 2011 almost every contender was looking or at least hoping. You burned the 2 draft picks for a reason. You now have a plan coming to fruition which should keep the team in tall grass for catching for years to come.I would only trade that for a for sure number 1 starter. Or maybe in a package for a couple starting every day guys.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 10:28:54 PM #

I'm not going to mortgage the arm for Shields. Ash,you made my point.If we had not had the pitching depth we had accumulated,we would have been up crap creek. In the catching department,if you don't have depth,you wind up like the Giants. I'll gamble anywhere else on the field with a lack of depth but not behind the dish. if Molina goes down,the WLBs are hosed.They proved you can patch stuff together and win. Hell,the Reds did to a certain extent. We had a patchwork LF ,SS,3B. The whole left side of the field was put together with duct tape,chicken wire and toothpicks.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/7/2011 12:25:32 AM #

mortgage the farm   Gene is wearing off on me.

Mary
Mary
10/6/2011 10:59:28 PM #

from rj

sounds like the Tigers are feeling the pressure in the bottom of the 7th--two IF hits load the bases with one out, ARod up

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/6/2011 11:07:25 PM #

If they had Jeter they'd win. he's clutch.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/6/2011 11:06:46 PM #

Tigers pitcher trying to field right there reminds me of that team that lost to the Cardinals in the World Series a few years back....oh wait, that was the Tigers.

Mary
Mary
10/6/2011 11:46:56 PM #

Glad to see the Tigers beat the Evil Empire--quite a nail biter at the end

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/6/2011 11:52:15 PM #

Evil Empire down! WLBs next!  Another quality choke job by A Rod and his purple lips.

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/7/2011 12:06:42 AM #

Congrats to Doc and Freida!

btalbert25
btalbert25
10/7/2011 12:22:03 AM #

At this point are the Rays even going to want to deal Shields.  He was on the market when it looked like there was absolutely no possible way they would make the playoffs.  If he is truly the Ace people think why wouldn't the Rays just pick up the reasonably cheap 7 million dollar option for 2012.  Assuming he's an ace, 7 mil is nothing.  

I have an off the wall suggestion, and he may be too expensive but it's the off season and we can dream, why not try to really go for broke and go get King Felix.  He's basically getting 49 million in the last 3 years of his deal, but perhaps a deal could be done.  There would be no doubt the Reds were going all in.  Felix would give us a pitcher that is a sure fire number 1, not just a guy who may or may not be better than Cueto, then Cueto, Leake, Arroyo, and Chapman.  Who knows what's going to happen with Volquez, and I'm not quite giving up on Wood just yet.  

My point is, if we're giving up a lot to get a top of the rotation guy, let's make sure we've got a top of the rotation guy.  2011 was great for Shields, but 2010 was not really.  He gave up 34 homeruns, and his ERA was over 5.  I don't care what division he pitched in, 5.18 is bad, and 34 homeruns is bad.  Especially, if you are coming to pitch in GABP.  2007, 2008, and 2009 were pretty good.  Yeah he pitched in the AL East, so he probably pitches better in the NL central, but other than this year, was he really ever great enough to just say wow, this guy is an ace?

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 9:28:48 AM #

7 mil is too much for the Rays.

DocProc
DocProc
10/7/2011 7:41:15 AM #

Go Tigers!  I'll admit that I didn't stay up to watch the end of the game last night, which is probably a good thing--I doubt I would have been able to sleep afterwards.  They sure like the nailbiters.

I don't feel as strongly about wanting them to beat the Rangers as I did the Yankees, but I'll still be rooting for my homies all the way.

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/7/2011 9:29:56 AM #

I'm ok with trading one or two pieces for value, but not going for broke.  I want to see the Reds win a World Series, but more than that I want to see them turn into a viable franchise that competes consistently every year.  They can only do that promoting from within.  If they are going to trade someone like Alonso, I agree with BT, do it for someone you know is a guaranteed #1 like King Felix.

The whole problem is salary.  In two years we're losing Votto more than likely.  We already have a guy that can replace him as a cornerstone bat in Alonso.  That's why I don't trade Alonso unless its for someone like Matt Kemp or Felix.  However, if we can't afford Votto, how in the world can we afford Kemp or Felix?  The answer is we can't.

I agree with Soccer on the catching depth, but I'd trade Grandal in some deals.  I'd just make sure Corky or a good defensive catcher like him was around just in case.

Lastly, I'm not sure the Reds need to add superstars to win 90+ games next year and even a World Series.  Look at the Yankees last night - it doesn't always work.  What the Reds need is consistency and stability from their players and a manager that doesn't have his head up his butt.  If Dusty just managed Masset right in April, used the one good leadoff hitter (BP) on the team from the beginning, wasn't enamored with the pile of dung in CF because of his speed, and let Hanigan catch Bailey/Leake/Wood every time then the Reds would have been at least 10 games better this past year.  

So, I'm not trading most of these guys as long as Dusty is manager because I have no confidence the guy could win a Series with Murderer's Row and the Phillies pitching staff.

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/7/2011 9:57:58 AM #

Let me also add that while I don't think Dusty is the guy to take the Reds where we all want them to go, I think bringing him back is ok.  I think what is happening is the Reds are saying here it is - you have one chance with all these guys next year.  We'll make some moves for you, get some pitching in here but we're not mortgaging the farm for you either.  Essentially I feel like they are giving Dusty a last chance while he still has his top gun in Votto to win.

If they win, great.  If not, after next year they start over by trading Votto (if he won't sign an extension) and getting a new manager.  I feel like Dusty and Votto are kind of tied to the hip here.  As much as I don't like Dusty, it really makes sense with where the Reds are contractually with their best, more veteran players - Votto, Rolen, and BP - as well as Dusty.

DocProc
DocProc
10/7/2011 10:01:36 AM #

I don't think there is any scenario in which Dusty is the right/best manager for this team.  It's clear that no matter what Walt gives him, he makes stupid choices for stupid reasons.

bjsReds1
bjsReds1
10/7/2011 10:58:02 AM #

Agreed 100%.  I just wanted to point out that I can see why keeping him one more year makes sense based on the fact that after next year, win or lose, there's a good chance the team may be starting over without their best and veteran players.  A managerial change at that point is logical as well.

Of course that idea is pointless if guys such as Votto and Rolen don't care for Dusty, which I have no way of knowing their feelings on his leadership.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:41:48 AM #

Ah,

There was a time when we had Pete Mac--cheap.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:45:44 AM #

Just having fun with Pete Mac. I have no idea if he coulda/wouda become a solid manager for this team. That said, I surely liked what he did when he was here for a partial season--a lot. He did enough, IMO, to be given a chance the next year. Water over the dam, I know.

Point is, if we ever end up with him now, it will probably no longer be nearly as cheap.

Nothing to do with anything, just had nothing else to say, add, this morning.

redbrick
redbrick
10/7/2011 3:31:25 PM #

Just checking to see if the account we set up for my brother-in-law is still in the system--GeneWV

redbrick
redbrick
10/7/2011 3:33:07 PM #

Man, looks just like him!

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 3:51:56 PM #

lotsa teeth and sunglasses?

Soccerdad13
Soccerdad13
10/7/2011 4:23:57 PM #

I've seen pictures of Gene. He and Redbrick look like they could be twins.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 6:17:50 PM #

Let's go Snakes!

Amy
Amy
10/7/2011 6:33:08 PM #

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney

I hope that someday, some pitcher runs around the infield with his arms extended after striking out Nyjer Morgan to start an inning.

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 7:03:45 PM #

I have the Brewer's radio feed on in the background and see that Bob Uecker has the same problem with Jerry Har-ris-ton that GG has.  I listened to him say it that way several times to make certain

Amy
Amy
10/7/2011 7:54:10 PM #

Some Reds spring games popping onto the master schedule:

springtrainingonline.com/.../...chedule-cactus.htm

Maybe some of the other teams have released their schedules? I know the Reds haven't.

DocProc
DocProc
10/7/2011 9:26:23 PM #

Um, I got a little too excited when I saw this.

River Otter
River Otter
10/7/2011 8:23:35 PM #

Mustache fail.  

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 8:42:06 PM #

Mary,

If you looked like by brother in law, would you not wear sunglasses, smile a lot so folks could see your one attribute--good teeth

Soccer,

That was scold, real cold.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 8:42:49 PM #

Ah, my typing slips again!

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 8:53:49 PM #

Brewers take the series with Nyger Morgan getting a walkoff hit in the tenth

Amy
Amy
10/7/2011 8:54:12 PM #

Yay, Brewers? Meh.

River Otter
River Otter
10/7/2011 8:54:48 PM #

It's hard not to be excited for Brewers' fans.  

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 9:00:56 PM #

now we can only hope for a WLB collapse tonight

Amy
Amy
10/7/2011 9:00:59 PM #

Whatever mike is near the home plate ump at Phillies-Cards, it's making him sound like a large dog woofing.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 9:31:41 PM #

Brewers Cardinals makes me want to hurl.

Not vomit, but hurl things at my tv, and out my window, and at old people. Yuck.

Amy
Amy
10/7/2011 9:34:44 PM #

NOT CARDINALS NOT CARDINALS NOT CARDINALS

Amy
Amy
10/7/2011 9:34:59 PM #

(please.)

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 9:44:04 PM #

+10000000000

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 9:44:33 PM #

This has to be the baseball gods way of mocking us for getting to high on the Reds 2010 season.

Not only do the Cards and Brew Crew make the NLCS, but the Cards do it by beating the team that made us look horrible last year.

Ugh ugh ugh.

River Otter
River Otter
10/7/2011 10:01:52 PM #

Let's hope your attempt to jinx the WLBs works.

River Otter
River Otter
10/7/2011 9:59:37 PM #

Nice bunt by Crypenter.  Hahahahahahaha.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 10:17:07 PM #

Ugh ugh ugh.

River Otter
River Otter
10/7/2011 10:19:10 PM #

I hate Molina, but I can't believe Utley tried to run on him.

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/7/2011 10:31:05 PM #

So where did we all end up on our preseason predictions compared to what actually happened?  Did we discuss that already?

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/7/2011 10:40:06 PM #

Phillies are completely choking, but Carpenter is also pitching extremely well.  Funny, Phils enabled STL to make the playoffs by sweeping the Braves, and now the Cards are going to knock them out.  Baseball is a funny thing...

Scary thing is, this Cards team might be even better next year with Wainwright back and a better bullpen at the start of the season.

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 10:42:47 PM #

No El Hombre.

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/7/2011 10:47:09 PM #

You can't be so sure about that.  If they win the WS, you think he'll turn down a solid offer from the Cards?  I don't.  And the rumors of 9 years, 194M that the Cards had offered may be a bit below his fair market value, but is probably longer than anyone else will go.  Plus he could get alot more in future contracts like a lifetime service deal if he stays.  I'm simply not convinced he will leave

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/7/2011 10:42:11 PM #

Carpenter goes in spikes up. Awesome.

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 10:49:02 PM #

maybe the WLBs leaving the bases loaded in the 8th will come back and bite them hard

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 10:59:40 PM #

Is it not just amazing how the Cards get so upset when opposing teams get emotional after good plays on their part against said Cards, and the cards lead the world in showing emotion?

WLB's are entitled, I forgot. My bad.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:01:24 PM #

This is a great game, however--in spite of the fact whoever wins it becomes my least favorite team moving forward.

I would say that if the WLB's were playing Cuba.

Mary
Mary
10/7/2011 11:12:00 PM #

crap

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:18:14 PM #

Howard looked liked he may have torn his Achilles.

Sure hope not.

We have all said many times. Just make the playoffs, and in a short series, especially one of the 5 game variety, and anyone can win.

Best teams always win the divisions, playoffs are crap shoots.

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/7/2011 11:18:19 PM #

All I can say is GO BREWERS.  I had a feeling when Cliff Lee stumbled in Game 2, and wouldn't get a chance to redeem himself, the Phillies might not win.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:19:34 PM #

Yep. A 5 game series can turn on one play.

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/7/2011 11:19:56 PM #

Fill me in, I haven't been around, but what does wlb stand for?

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/7/2011 11:21:28 PM #

The parallels between the Yanks and the Phils is really uncanny.  Solid pitching but poor offense and too much pressure seemed to cause both teams to unravel.

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/7/2011 11:31:36 PM #

WLB's is short for what Brandon Phillips referred to the Cards as in a discussion with Hal McCoy late last season.  He called them "Whiny Little Bitches" thus WLB's for short. It's one of the more accurate comments BP has ever made.  

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/7/2011 11:34:50 PM #

Of course.  

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/7/2011 11:34:01 PM #

And yes I loath that the Cards won but somehow it phases me very little that the Phills lost again.  Go Brew Crew. At least I'll have no question about who I'm rooting for in the NLCS.

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/7/2011 11:39:56 PM #

Every team passed on Pujols 12 times in the 1999 draft and he weighed close to 300 lbs when he signed.  Do nothing Walt took a flyer on an injured Chris Carpenter after the 2002 season, hoping he might fill out the back end of the rotation after he rehabbed.  Now, nearly ten years later those guys are the backbone of an unprecedented run.   Unbelievable dumb effing luck.  Damn, when will it end?

Grizzlyfox
Grizzlyfox
10/8/2011 8:38:48 AM #

Clearly when they sign a guy that is 300 pounds and looks like Elvis and is coming off a horrendous season, right? ////Lance Berkman'd

RedFaced
RedFaced
10/7/2011 11:46:56 PM #

As bad as I'm taking this I'm more worried about Ash right now.  Has anyone heard from him?

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/8/2011 12:11:58 AM #

At least he doesn't live right smack dab in the middle of it.  I'm trying, I mean really trying to at least just kind of go with it this year.  I'm so jaded it is proving a Herculean task.  I can't watch and enjoy a Cardinal game because I use way, way to much energy hoping for them to lose.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:55:26 PM #

It happens. WVU had its greatest run in FB history, with the three main ingredients being Pat White, who wanted to play QB in the SEC, no one would even give him a shot, would not even lie to him ( hard to believe, I know ) and say they would allow him a chance, so he came to WVU by total default.

Then there was Steve Slaton, who wanted to go to Md., they gave him a scholly, then after the recruiting season was over, another kid surprised them by qualifing academically, they sent Slaton packing, heart broken. WVU had a opening only because they could not recruit enough kids to fill out the roster, he came to WVU became a All-American, as did PW by the way.

Finally, in came Owen Schmidt that no one in D-1 gave a scholly to, brought his mom and some film in begging for someone to look at it. Literally stumbled into Morgantown because it was on the way home after begging some other schools to take a look, and we gave him a walk on, not a scholarship. He made some All-American teams as well. Eventually got a scholarship, of course.

Together, they made up the greatest backfield in WVU history, led us to three straight major bowls, victories in all of them, including beating Georgia and Okla. in the Sugar and Fiesta.

Throw a ways, all three.

Together, they made Rich Rodriguez the hottest commidity in college FB--and even he did not want them--originally.

RR and Ole' Walt both got very lucky.

River Otter
River Otter
10/8/2011 7:59:38 AM #

Two of the key players on Iowa's 2002 team that went undefeated in the Big Ten were Bob Sanders and Dallas Clark.  Iowa was the only BCS school to offer Sanders, which they did at the last minute because they had an extra scholarship and because Sanders' HS coach convinced Ferentz, who had been recruiting one of Sanders' high school teammates, that Sanders would be a good special teams player (everyone thought Sanders was too small to play Division 1 football). Sanders became an All-American safety at Iowa and is in the discussion for one of the school's all-time great defensive players.  Sanders also ended up having a pretty good NFL career, including an NFL Defensive Player of the Year award while with the Colts, before injuries derailed him.

Dallas Clark wasn't even offered a scholarship.  He was a walk-on linebacker that Iowa eventually converted to a tight end.  While Iowa's coaches get credit for converting him to tight end, I don't think anyone envisioned him becoming the best tight end in college football by his senior season.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  Seems like most successful teams usually have one or two players that exceed expectations.

genewv
genewv
10/7/2011 11:57:50 PM #

RF,

Ash may have been committed by now. Lord, i would hate to be living where he is living at the moment.

genewv
genewv
10/8/2011 12:19:12 AM #

StL,

Maybe you and Ash can can have a party when--and if--they lose. You are probably the only two Red's fans in the entire metro area up there.

If they don't lose--well, maybe you best move!

rpa
rpa
10/8/2011 12:22:55 AM #

Man.  Cards v. Brewers.  You know this means you can argue the Reds were the 3rd best team in the NL this year, right?  I mean, they finished 3rd in the division that produced the two best teams in the league.

So... will the Cards hate outweigh the Selig hate?  Meh.  GO TIGERS.

stlredsfan
stlredsfan
10/8/2011 12:28:16 AM #

There is flat out, categorically nothing that can outweigh Cardinal hate.

River Otter
River Otter
10/8/2011 8:01:21 AM #

Agreed

River Otter
River Otter
10/8/2011 8:07:53 AM #

It irritated me to no end watching the hypocritical Cards when that game, but I can't say I'm shocked the Phillies lost.  The Phillies lineup is a bit of a disaster considering they have a $165 million payroll.  

DocProc
DocProc
10/8/2011 8:21:27 AM #

I HATE that the WLBs are moving on.  However, there's something satisfying about the fat cat Phillies and Yankees getting bounced in the first round.

Go Tigers!

(Hey mods, should we have a new starter for the next round of playoffs?  No starter content needed.)

Mary
Mary
10/8/2011 10:34:54 AM #

I was just planning to do that--good reminder

kohawk10s
kohawk10s
10/8/2011 8:24:46 AM #

Look for Williams to explore one-for-two and one-for-three deals for high-end Class AA prospects who would be ready for major-league camp in February, using right-hander Gavin Floyd or left-hander John Danks — or both — in trades.

From the Saturday Sun-Times.....Reds would fit the bill as trading partners with White Sox....would rather have Buehrle tho I think

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/8/2011 8:29:21 AM #

Gavin Floyd 4.37 ERA, 43% groundball rate, and 1,02HR/9 in 2011.  No thanks, one home run and flyball machine (Arroyo) is enough.  Reds need a top of the rotation guy, not a back end innings eater.  Reds have enough of those already

kohawk10s
kohawk10s
10/8/2011 8:46:28 AM #

How do stats treat Danks or Buehrle? LH's not a real strength of Reds.

timmytwoshoezzz
timmytwoshoezzz
10/8/2011 10:27:37 AM #

Danks 4.33 ERA, 43%GB rate, 2.4 BB/9, 1.00 HR/9, 1.34 WHIP

Buehrle 3.59 ERA, 45% GB, 1.97 BB/9, .92HR/9, 1.30 WHIP

Danks is about the same as Floyd but with fewer innings pitched, and Buerlre is better but his K% has been in steady decline.

Mary
Mary
10/8/2011 10:41:06 AM #

new thread place holder is up for further discussions

DocProc
DocProc
10/8/2011 11:04:59 AM #

Thanks!

By the way, some of your squirrel friends are digging around in our rafters.  Not happy about that.  Tell them to go find a baseball field to run around.  Smile

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